Curse

Amity and Truth · Oct 21, 2006, 11:27 AM // 11:27

It is not a very important argument if it is used to bombard every single change that happens in GuildWars. Yep. It is used to do so. Just look at the suggestions forum. Just look at every single thread here. It's used as the "one counter to ignore them all" argument.
Bring up some arguments that can hold its own, that have a background behind it. Bring something new instead of stalling the discussion before it even started. That is what you do when you call the "mighty" grind argument. You do not add new insights but instead hammer on that one sentence on the package of GuildWars and expect everyone else to just stfu simply because you pointed at the "allmighty" grind argument.

Once that certain argument is brought up, the discussion can only go down the drain and will sooner or later result in a flamewar. I don't care if you're right or not, but simply just don't bring that one stupid worthless argument.

And as i allready said, it is even used to support the changes in GuildWars. Every side uses it and all they do is argue who is allowed to use it.
Thus, the point this so called argument has is void. It's extremely overused, lessening its importance more and more and more.

Divinus Stella · Oct 21, 2006, 12:59 PM // 12:59

Well, i think this thing depends purely on the rank of the title you have to achieve to gain the benefit, all the PvE titles are easy to max, just takes lots of grind, if the salvaging bonus was attained at rank3 wisdom or so id have no problems as i think anyone can get that without much grinding, but if it was at the highest rank (6 or 7) that would be stupid, i think the only players that will benefit from that are the chinese gold farmers as they are the ones with the wisdom titles hovering around 5+.

I would like to see something for the hero title, i know it has an emote, but its still the the hardest title in the game to progress with.

Theus · Oct 21, 2006, 01:00 PM // 13:00

Bad Idea.

It wouldn't be if titles didn't effect ones fortune.Seeing as Seeker of Wisdom allows you a better chance of actually succesfully removing a mod without destroying the weapon seems unfair to other players.

I don't care if they get some Different types of in-game bonuses,as long as its say,Increased Damage or Increase Defense agaisnt a certain species of monster,But,I don't like the fact that players will actually get advantages over other players,such as the Seeker of Wisdom title bonus.

Though I do look forward to what bonuses Protector of Tyria/Cantha give.And I'm wondering if the different %'s of the Map titles will also give bonuses.

Sectus · Oct 21, 2006, 01:01 PM // 13:01

Well, I certainly haven't seen that specific argument as often as you say. And definitely not from both sides (I don't see how people who like grind would use that argument, that's contradictory).

I suppose the reason why it's brought up multiple times is to remind people what Guild Wars is supposed to be about. The community is partially split up: We have those who are obsessed with PvP who are COMPLETELY against grind and are completely against any kind of advantage not everybody has access to. Then we have the casual pve'ers, these are the ones who don't grind to get max rank in every title... at best they only have a few titles at tier 1. They could also be considered against grind, because they simply don't have the time necessary get any title to max rank.

And then we have the hardcore pvers, who are also split into groups: The hardcore farmers, those who continously do endgame "dungeons", those who farm for titles, people who do all of those, etc... Most of these have nothing against grind since they already spend so much time with the game anyway, but even many of these are 100% against grind.

So you may think the "grind" argument is pointless. But for many other people who think grind would destroy Guild Wars it's a very very very important issue. And that "skill, not time spent playing" argument is basically the one good proof we have that Guild Wars is not supposed to be about grind at all.

Esprit · Oct 21, 2006, 01:41 PM // 13:41

It seems kind of cool, having our titles work for us. And this is coming from someone whose best title is 'Friends of the Kurzicks' title. As long as it doesn't tier PvE like Rank has tiered PvP (ex: "LF R6+ group") then I look forward to it.

Karmaniac · Oct 21, 2006, 02:07 PM // 14:07

I'm against these title effects- mainly because I have none. But what the hell at least the staff generation algorhitm is getting a total ovehaul. Right, right...?

Sai of Winter · Oct 21, 2006, 02:15 PM // 14:15

I really don't see anything wrong with this, it gives the player something to do after they completed the game. Almost giving it more of an rpg feel. Plus, there are the story titles that you eventually will get when progressing into the storyline (example: Sunspear rank) and who knows, the rewards for the story titles could be better.

But we should wait and see until the game is release, and not overreact about this right now.

As for groups requiring people to have a certain title to join them...I don't think anyone is that stupid enough to do that in pve.

Wildi · Oct 21, 2006, 02:23 PM // 14:23

The rpg/pve aspect of any game which is based only on one single factor like "skills" + cosmetical changes (like skins and titles without any use) does not work well for a long time.
After you tried all kinds of builds or skill combinations the game will be boring pretty fast and the most people who don't like pvp will start to do something useful, something that is non cosmetical like farming or chest running. (Titles have no use yet, they are useless for a big part of the community so people farm greens instead

). Title effects will be added to give depth into the game and to make titles not useless anymore. Stupid "grind versus skill" or "time played vs skill" arguments do not work here.

About the overrused "ballance argument".

Quote:

This game has always been about balance and not giving people an advantage over others.

You can pay at a shrine to get bonus, you can buy candy canes to remove DP instantly.. zomg you got an advantage. Did this hurt the game ? No. Title effects are not any different. Btw. faction bosses do double damage why can't we get a little bonus as well ?

Ravi · Oct 21, 2006, 03:03 PM // 15:03

So What u ppl are saying is, even if ive been playing this dam game for more than a year now, i dont deserve A SMALL reward IN PVE Because u are TOO LAZY and dont want to little by little attain your benefits?

I want MY benefits for playing, even if they stated the grind vs skill thingy (wich is a statement that refers to pvp) only refers to making it to lvl 20; now its simple u dont like it? dont buy the game, stay stuck in prophesies, but dont try to drag the experience down for us who DO LIKE this idea.

Jetdoc · Oct 21, 2006, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sid Soggybottom

It's just that some of us are disappointed in GW's continuing direction of rewarding grind.

Let's take a look at that "continuing direction."

* A long time ago, max damage 15>50 weapons and max armor shields cost 300K+. People complained about the "amount of grind" to get those.

* Green weapons/shields are introduced. "Perfect" items could be obtained for relatively cheap. Grind reduced. People still complained.

* More variety of collector/crafter weapons/shields are introduced. Now the most popular modifiers (e.g. Strength required +45/-2 enchanted collector shield) are available for less than 1K (or definitely less than 10K). Grind significantly reduced. People still complained.

* Leak of "inscriptions" in Nightfall is mentioned. Based on this, any rare skinned, low requirement weapon will now be able to be made with the perfect modifier of your choice for much cheaper. Grind anticipated to be almost eliminated for these items.

Yet, people still complain about grind. Now one potential, possibly small, benefit for grind is introduced. People complain loudly how A-Net is constantly encouraging grind.

I'm at a loss for words.

Sir Mad · Oct 21, 2006, 03:23 PM // 15:23

I love how Amity and Truth made a point everybody is ignoring to post something that has already been said in the 2 first pages most of the time.

I feel sympathy for ANETwho worked hard on a cool feature for players that is already described as TEH WORZT UPDATE EVER despite the fact no-one here has tested it or really knows what it will look like.

Ravi · Oct 21, 2006, 03:32 PM // 15:32

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10064115, now read what gaile is saying here; u can unluck skills for your account with the hero trainers? hhmm... no gold ... no skill points? hhmm, i guess u ppl are right guild wars is making us grind! /end sarcasm

as far as titles go, dont like em? dont touch em. on another note, elitism? elitism?! do i hear elitism?! ppl who disaprove elitism are almost always lazy pve'rs who dont what to do squat and want everything handed over in a silver plate, how can there be elitism when u have heroes?

Cyan The Archer · Oct 21, 2006, 03:32 PM // 15:32

You know everything in Guild Wars could be considered a grind.. A grind to get the skills to play your build, grind to get to lvl 20 etc.

The title effect will not cause any imbalance at all. It will not be working for PvP(Unless Anet was drunk when they thought of this >_<), and in PvE you should be happy to have one on your team with a title that might give you a higher chance of succeding.
I love these changes, because it will give me a better reason to achieve the titles. It's no grind because i choose to do it, and, like 11>50 to 15>50, you only have a small bonus which an experienced player could easily win without.

If you are a PvP you shouldn't have much to say, if you havent played PvE for months. You can have your opinion, but how could you possible know how much it would change?

raven214 · Oct 21, 2006, 03:36 PM // 15:36

I like this idea as long as:
1) It is not overpowered
2) It doesn't make PvE leet/high ranked only
3) It doesn't count in PvP

It gives a nice incentive for titles, and makes for a real reward.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Mad

+50% damage with drunken blow

That would be awesome, and so fitting...

Sectus · Oct 21, 2006, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wildi

The rpg/pve aspect of any game which is based only on one single factor like "skills" + cosmetical changes (like skins and titles without any use) does not work well for a long time.
After you tried all kinds of builds or skill combinations the game will be boring pretty fast and the most people who don't like pvp will start to do something useful, something that is non cosmetical like farming or chest running. (Titles have no use yet, they are useless for a big part of the community so people farm greens instead

). Title effects will be added to give depth into the game and to make titles not useless anymore. Stupid "grind versus skill" or "time played vs skill" arguments do not work here.

I highly disagree. Time played vs skill can be extremely important based on how the bonuses work.

To set a hypothetical example. If you manage to get Masters on each mission in Nightfall you get the Protector of Elona title. With this, you unlock an alternate armour set for your character with an angelic look. (This is all hypothetical. If anet is reading this, feel free to steal this idea

) There's nothing wrong with this title or reward. It's a challenging title with no grind necessary to complete. And the reward gives absolutely no advantage to the player.

Another example. If you manage to sit still 10,000 minutes while doubleclicking on ale you get the Incorrigible Ale-Hound title. With this title, you'll get a constant 50% damage reduction while being drunk. This would be very very bad. Not only is it a total grind to achieve (repeating something mindless for 10,000 minutes is definitely a total grind), but it gives an extremely unfair advantage compared to other players. And it would even add an extra amount of grind of forcing the player with the title to always waste gold on ale so he can maintain his title function (this is the reason why I'm glad this game has no potions by the way

)

Anet has the power to choose which route to go with their title bonuses. If they go with the former, there's no harm done, and people are encouraged to get titles. If they go with the latter, they destroy the entire balance in the game, and the entire "rewards player skill, not time spent playing" promise becomes an absolute lie.

Kook~NBK~ · Oct 21, 2006, 03:57 PM // 15:57

I don't like the idea of titles giving damage buffs or any advantages while out in the field of battle. It's bad enough that we have "X/X LFG - no noobs" (which is dumb because you don't know if anyone's a n00b or not until you're in the mission), Now we're going to be faced with true elitism in PvE: "X/X Forming group for _____________, must be rank X in __(insert title here)_____, must show title." (I'm ready to slap someone already! LOL)

prism2525 · Oct 21, 2006, 04:00 PM // 16:00

I'd like the protector titles to give customized, powerful, rare skinned weaponry.

As long as it's customized there's no danger right?

And for the salvaging, I' rather pay an [expert salvager] npc than having the risk of getting scammed from 'expert' players.

Illuminus · Oct 21, 2006, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Bah.. this is what i hate about most of the GW community. They moan and complain about ANet not adding enough content and then when they do want to add something.. they still complain and moan!

Personally i think it might be interesting. Most of the titles are just not worth grinding for at this moment.. which is why my account is filled with half finished ones. This might actually give someone a reason to earn them. Sure, it will add grind.. but at least its something worthwhile to work for now.

I do agree that not having certain titles might make people not want you in their parties.. which will obviously be a huge problem to overcome. But i guess we will have to wait and see what ANet have up their sleeves

(ah, yes.. if each title would give visual effects that doesnt really effect gameplay like mini pets.. that would be cool aswell. Im sure there are lots of ways to approach this)

Cyan The Archer · Oct 21, 2006, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kook~NBK~

I don't like the idea of titles giving damage buffs or any advantages while out in the field of battle. It's bad enough that we have "X/X LFG - no noobs" (which is dumb because you don't know if anyone's a n00b or not until you're in the mission), Now we're going to be faced with true elitism in PvE: "X/X Forming group for _____________, must be rank X in __(insert title here)_____, must show title." (I'm ready to slap someone already! LOL)

Considering that there is so many who are complaining about that, it shouldn't be that big of a problem because there should be alot without those titles, and dont forget our Hero system, and most important of all: The guilds

LoKi Foxfire · Oct 21, 2006, 04:39 PM // 16:39

How about all of you stop complaining until the features are actually released? Or maybe they could release some spoiler information on some of the more menial titles that can be obtained? :P